Comments:

Thank you for posting your dialogue, Aaron. Both you and Noel have such respect for eachother, despite your differences; which I'm pretty sure was what you were aiming to communicate.

Do you know much about Dr. Tony Campolo and his wife Peggy (I assume you might from your post-exodus days)? He, a "highly respected voice in evangelical Christianity," believes that being gay is not in itself a sin - it is what you do with it. Simply put, he believes gay individuals are called to a life of celibacy. Peggy believes that monogamous same-sex relationships should be recognized in marriage. They are husband and wife, they live in the same home, and they have almost completely differing views on this subject... yet they have enough respect to recognize their differences rather than attempt to change their partner's opinion.

I want to believe that some day, mature, respectful dialogue will surface, but I really don't think it will. Differing, but increased levels of extremity in people will probably become more common as opposed to less. Though that doesn't mean we can't push towards such ideals today.

Good stuff! I think there are more Christians discussing this issue than what most people believe. Dialogue is part of growth. I think you will find this topic discussed more and more in Christian circles. That makes me happy!

Aaron,

Thanks for sharing all of the dialoge between you and Noel. I have struggled with this issue since I went to college. I was raised Lutheran and went to a Baptist college. From day one, I was going to hell for being a Lutheran and all I could think was: 'What's going to happen when they find out I'm gay?!?'

So, for that very reason, I focused on finding a peace. And I never found that peace in any church or synagouge (sp?) I visited. I believe in God and Jesus Christ, but have abandoned the church as an organization. I have become more spiritual than religious. I find more meaning sitting at the lake with my pups watching the sunset.

Not sure what I wanted to say with this comment, but I hope you find some Christians who will dialog with you and help you with the questions you have.

Good Luck! *SMOOCH*

I loved reading this dialogue. I am coming to a place in my experience with the church where I have to question my assumptions in order for them to become convictions.

The church fails. It fails people at all walks of life and in all versions of religiosity. It fails true believers and it fails "outsiders." and I don't know why. But there is love. and there are people who desire to heal hurt.

I am part of the church and I wouldn't, couldn't trade that part of me for any reason. Homosexuality for many is a dogma issue. Many people don't "know" any gay people (or so they think). I remember when I was in the theatre program in college and being gay and gay friendly was an natural as breathing. and the issue was never if someone was gay or not but if they were nice or mean. Simplistic, I know. I've got no bright ideas about bridging this gap but I have a desire. I can only go from there.

Aaron, you say "Noel isn’t threatened by me or shaky in his beliefs. He doesn’t preach to me. When he sees me next, he’ll treat me just like he would anyone else. And I would do the same to him."

But he still thinks your lifestyle is a sin, right? He'd still want you to change if you could, or at the very least be celibate. Is this tolerance? Is this 'respect'? Is this all we should be asking for, like Oliver content with his one cup of gruel? Is showing respect for someone who has a disrespectful view of me and my lifestyle being the better man?

I for one find this bran of tolerance and respect unacceptable. It amounts to nothing more than a truce, and I for one am not willing to give up the fight against the ignorant and hateful.

I'll say it right out--I have no respect nor tolerance for those whose religious beliefs cast me as sinner or celibate.

Jason,

Yes, Noel thinks my lifestyle is a sin, and thus, I'm a sinner. I'm sure he wants me to change.

But he also thinks of himself as a sinner. He knows that he is no different than me -- no holier, no less mired in the filth of daily existence.

He has examined his faith, its teachings and his views on homosexuality. Many times, he has gone against church traditions because he's come to his own beliefs and convictions. (How many other pastors swear?) I believe he has honestly examined the issue of homosexuality -- held it up to the light and explored it from all perspectives. The conclusion he came to is that homosexuality is not natural.

I've done the same -- examined it from all sides. But the conclusion I came up with is different.

So what do you do in such a situation? When, after complete and independent examinations by all sides, you simply disagree? My opinion is that yes, you need a truce. I need to respect Noel's opinion and he needs to respect mine.

I would like Noel to share my opinion on this issue, just like he wants me to share his. But I don't need that. I just need respect, which means that he allows me to live my life as I choose -- equal rights, freedom from fear, etc. And, even better (but not necessary), for us to still be able to like each other and have a relationship despite our differences.

The attitude that you will not rest until every man, woman and child shares the same beliefs you do -- that you will not tolerate anything else -- is the exact same attitude as those you despise. The exact same. It makes you no different than the fundamentalist, hate-mongering Christian. Jimmy Swaggart says, "I want to kill gays." You say, "I want to kill those who think my lifestyle is a sin."

Is there a difference?

(btw, I'm using Noel just as an example. this isn't about him specifically.)

Well, the big difference between me and Swaggart is that he may want to kill gays, but I don't want to kill Christians. Where did you get that insane idea??? Where did you get the idea that I won't rest until every man woman and child agrees with me???

One of the main problems I have with Christianity is St. Paul's notion of original sin. Preaching to all those happy fornicators at Corinth (I've stood on the stone he himself apparently stood on), he realized he had to invent the idea of original sin in order to persuade these folks that their lives were sinful. So, he came up with the idea that life itself, human existence, is mired in sin. That's bullshit. We aren't all sinners, and our existence is not 'filthy'. It's actually quite lovely and beautiful. And I've found that some of what the church declares as sinful (including sex) is actually quite beautiful and fulfilling.

It's one thing to live your life and let others live theirs. Perhaps your pastor friend is of that kind. Hopefully he isn't in favor of a federal marriage amendment, is he? Hopefully he's for including homosexuality under hate crimes legislation...

The problem with many evangelical Christians is that their faith doesn't flourish within a bubble. Evangelizing gives them their purpose--whether that be in converting one sinner at a time, or through affecting public policy, which affects my life. So an evangelical Christian has done some heavy duty soul searching and has come to the conclusion that homosexuality is a sin. Good for them. But am I supposed to continue to respect their stance if they use it to pass legislation that hampers my freedoms and rights? When you add public policy to the paradigm, the idea of a truce between conflicting ideas is ridiculous when one side is still allowing those ideas to inform his or her thoughts on how everyone should live their lives (and by extension, voting or advocating those ideas).

You have every right to seek out relationships with whoever you choose, but I myself couldn't fathom having any sort of relationship with someone who found my lifestyle fit their definition of a 'sin'.

I don't think you actually want to kill Christians. You're crazy, but not that crazy.

I agree with this most recent comment from you, my lovely poetic friend. Our existence is beautiful. Can't filth be beautiful? You and I both find beauty in areas that much of society would find revolting. Yes, some of what the church describes as sinful, I don't see in the same way. (Obviously)

And like you suggest, it's a different matter when others try to limit our lives, e.g. through public policies that give you and I less rights, including preventing me from marrying, well, you (if we wanted, of course).

That raises an interesting point, though. It would be difficult to be friends with Noel if he supported a law that would prevent me from marrying a man I loved, or if he objected to hate crime laws that covered sexuality. (I don't know about his stance on marriage, but I'm sure he believes in complete hate-crime laws.) Then again, my best friend from college is a hard-core Republican, and we are still friends. You can still care for someone, even while working toward opposite means.

I wrote this after reading your earlier post.

You didn't lose a good friend, even if it seems that way. He was neither good nor a friend. One of the blessings of being gay is that we do find out who our friends are.

Another blessing is that we get to see the hypocrisy of christianity. You did not lose religion or god. You sound like someone who knows divine love. That can't be given or taken away, as much as Swaggart would like to be elected God and decide who is deserving of His love. Swaggart himself is at risk of never realizing infinite love.

Whenever a church claims to be welcoming of gay folk it always seems to come at some price, (no priesthood) some compromise, (no marriage) some little understanding (love the sinner) that continues to let you know that you will never be equal. It troubles me when I hear that gay folk are looking for acceptance in christianity. Like that straight boy you had a crush on in high school, You can wait, you can hope, but it ain't gunna happen.